Yassin: 00:00

Welcome back, everybody. Today, we're taking a deep dive into something pretty fascinating.

Zaynab: 00:04

Yeah. It's all about online learning.

Yassin: 00:07

And specifically, how these virtual patients you might have heard of. Mhmm. They're changing the game when it comes to medical education.

Zaynab: 00:15

Definitely. They're really shaking things up. I mean, simulations are giving these future doctors a safe space to practice

Yassin: 00:23

Oh, absolutely.

Zaynab: 00:24

You know, before they're anywhere near real patients.

Yassin: 00:26

It's like that difference between have you ever, like, read a book about something?

Zaynab: 00:30

Yeah. Yeah.

Yassin: 00:30

Read a book about swimming

Zaynab: 00:32

Yeah.

Yassin: 00:32

And then actually jumping in the pool?

Zaynab: 00:34

Exactly.

Yassin: 00:34

It's that hands on.

Zaynab: 00:35

Yeah.

Yassin: 00:36

It's that real world experience.

Zaynab: 00:37

Huge difference.

Yassin: 00:38

And what's so cool is how this all ties back to MOOCs. Yeah. Those massive open online courses

Zaynab: 00:46

Right.

Yassin: 00:46

Which have just exploded in popularity because it's global. Anyone can learn. Mhmm. And we're seeing more and more of these virtual patients being integrated into MOOCs.

Zaynab: 00:56

Yeah. And that's actually what we're looking at today. We have a study Okay. That was done, published in Education Sciences.

Yassin: 01:02

Okay.

Zaynab: 01:02

And they were looking at virtual patients

Yassin: 01:04

Okay.

Zaynab: 01:04

In a MOOC environment.

Yassin: 01:06

Gotcha. So very

Zaynab: 01:07

Specifically looking at bladder cancer.

Yassin: 01:09

Oh, wow. Okay. So bladder cancer, virtual patients, online learners, what exactly were they trying to find out?

Zaynab: 01:18

So they were interested in seeing how people learn best in this kind of open online setting

Yassin: 01:24

Okay.

Zaynab: 01:24

And, importantly, how the design of that virtual patient impacts that learning.

Yassin: 01:29

Oh, interesting. Okay.

Zaynab: 01:30

So do people learn better when you give them more choices, or does a more structured approach lead to better outcomes?

Yassin: 01:36

Well, that is a good question.

Zaynab: 01:37

Right.

Yassin: 01:37

So how did they design these virtual patient versions?

Zaynab: 01:40

So the first version they did was very choose your own adventure kind of experience

Yassin: 01:44

Okay.

Zaynab: 01:45

Where learners had multiple paths they could take.

Yassin: 01:48

Okay.

Zaynab: 01:49

And they got to decide at each step what information to gather Uh-huh. What tests to order.

Yassin: 01:55

Oh, I like that.

Zaynab: 01:56

Right. So you feel very much in charge of the diagnosis.

Yassin: 01:58

You're really engaging.

Zaynab: 02:00

Exactly. But the researchers wondered if all this freedom might actually be overwhelming

Yassin: 02:05

Right.

Zaynab: 02:06

To some learners.

Yassin: 02:07

Especially if it's something

Zaynab: 02:08

Especially those who are new to this type of medical case.

Yassin: 02:11

Right. They've never seen this before.

Zaynab: 02:12

Exactly. So they created a second version that was much more linear.

Yassin: 02:17

Okay. So this one's more like a guided tour.

Zaynab: 02:19

Exactly.

Yassin: 02:19

Okay.

Zaynab: 02:20

So learners would get, like, a multiple choice question at each step. Mhmm. They'd get immediate feedback on their answer, and then they would move to the next step.

Yassin: 02:28

Gotcha. So less freedom, but maybe a little more supportive for someone who is just

Zaynab: 02:33

Yeah.

Yassin: 02:33

Getting their feet wet.

Zaynab: 02:34

Exactly.

Yassin: 02:35

Okay. So what'd they find? So Did one design lead to people being more engaged? Did they learn more from 1 versus the other?

Zaynab: 02:43

Well, this is where it gets really interesting.

Yassin: 02:45

Okay.

Zaynab: 02:45

They had 378 learners

Yassin: 02:48

Okay.

Zaynab: 02:49

Participate in the study. Wow. And each learner was randomly assigned to one of the 2 virtual patient designs.

Yassin: 02:56

Okay.

Zaynab: 02:57

And the results were a bit surprising. Oh,

Yassin: 03:00

okay. Alright. You can't leave me hanging like that. I know. I know.

Yassin: 03:03

What did they find?

Zaynab: 03:04

We'll get to that.

Yassin: 03:05

Okay. So last we left off, you're about to tell us what they found when they had these hundreds of learners try out these 2 different virtual patient designs.

Zaynab: 03:13

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Yassin: 03:14

1 where you could kinda choose your own adventure and the other one that was more straightforward. Right. Right. Exactly. So 378 learners.

Yassin: 03:20

I mean, that's a pretty That's

Zaynab: 03:21

a good amount.

Yassin: 03:22

Yeah. That's a good sample size.

Zaynab: 03:24

Yeah. So, you would think, right

Yassin: 03:27

Yeah.

Zaynab: 03:27

That the choose your own adventure one

Yassin: 03:30

Yeah. More engaging?

Zaynab: 03:31

Could lead to more engagement, maybe even better learning.

Yassin: 03:34

Yeah. It's intuitive. Right? Yeah. Give people more freedom.

Yassin: 03:36

They're gonna be more into it.

Zaynab: 03:37

That's what you would think. Yeah. But that's not what they found.

Yassin: 03:40

Oh, really?

Zaynab: 03:41

Yeah. It was actually kinda counterintuitive.

Yassin: 03:43

Like

Zaynab: 03:44

The more open ended design

Yassin: 03:46

Okay.

Zaynab: 03:47

Actually led to a higher dropout rate.

Yassin: 03:49

Oh, wow. So more people bailed on the one Yeah. And they had more freedom. Exactly. Interesting.

Yassin: 03:53

Okay.

Zaynab: 03:54

More freedom, more choices, more people dropping out.

Yassin: 03:57

So why is that? That seems so counterintuitive.

Zaynab: 04:00

Right. You'd think if it's more engaging, they would stick with it.

Yassin: 04:03

You would think. Yeah.

Zaynab: 04:04

But it seems like maybe it was just too much.

Yassin: 04:06

Okay. So too much freedom was overwhelming.

Zaynab: 04:09

Yeah. And that's actually a thing. You know? Cognitive overload.

Yassin: 04:12

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Zaynab: 04:13

Imagine you're a learner. Right?

Yassin: 04:15

Yeah.

Zaynab: 04:15

And maybe you're totally new to this whole bladder cancer diagnosis. Yeah. And suddenly, you're thrown into this complex medical case. You've got all this information.

Yassin: 04:24

Yeah.

Zaynab: 04:25

All these different paths you could take.

Yassin: 04:27

Yeah.

Zaynab: 04:27

It'd be easy to just feel completely overwhelmed.

Yassin: 04:30

Totally. And I think that's a really good point because like you said, it depends on the learner. Exactly. Because some learners might love that.

Zaynab: 04:36

Right. Some people thrive in that kind of environment.

Yassin: 04:39

Probably in the deep end, they'll figure it out.

Zaynab: 04:41

Exactly. But others need a little bit more.

Yassin: 04:43

More structure.

Zaynab: 04:44

Yeah.

Yassin: 04:44

Yeah. Yeah. More guidance.

Zaynab: 04:46

Okay.

Yassin: 04:46

And that's where that linear approach might actually be more beneficial.

Zaynab: 04:50

Right. Okay.

Yassin: 04:50

Because instead of feeling overwhelmed by choices

Zaynab: 04:53

Yeah.

Yassin: 04:53

You're guided through the case with clear steps.

Zaynab: 04:56

Uh-huh.

Yassin: 04:57

You get feedback along the way so you know if you're on the right track.

Zaynab: 05:00

It's like you're building confidence as you go.

Yassin: 05:02

Exactly. You got it.

Zaynab: 05:04

Instead of just being completely lost in the weeds and then you just say, forget it. I'm out.

Yassin: 05:08

Exactly. And, you know, MOOCs, they attract such a diverse group of learners.

Zaynab: 05:14

Oh, absolutely.

Yassin: 05:15

So what works for one person might not work for another.

Zaynab: 05:18

Different backgrounds, different learning styles. It makes sense.

Yassin: 05:21

Exactly.

Zaynab: 05:22

So are we saying that we need to kinda tailor the experience a little bit more than just a one size fits all approach? Yeah. It's really pointing to that idea of learner centered design.

Yassin: 05:32

Learner centered design. Yeah. We hear that a lot, but what does that actually look like

Zaynab: 05:36

Right.

Yassin: 05:37

In practice?

Zaynab: 05:37

Well, it's about recognizing that every learner is different.

Yassin: 05:41

Mhmm.

Zaynab: 05:41

You can't just approach them as if they're all starting at the same point.

Yassin: 05:45

Right. They got different backgrounds, different needs.

Zaynab: 05:47

Exactly. Their past experiences, even just what motivates them Right. They're all gonna be different.

Yassin: 05:54

Okay. So how do we design these online learning tools, these virtual patient experiences with that in mind?

Zaynab: 06:00

That's where things get really interesting Okay. Because this research is pointing to adaptive learning technologies.

Yassin: 06:05

Okay. So is that, like, where the virtual patient can actually adjust to how I'm doing as a learner?

Zaynab: 06:11

Exactly.

Yassin: 06:11

Woah. Okay.

Zaynab: 06:12

Like, imagine a virtual patient that can tell if you're breezing through the diagnosis.

Yassin: 06:18

Yeah. Oh.

Zaynab: 06:19

And it might throw in some curve balls to make it a little more challenging.

Yassin: 06:22

Oh, that's cool.

Zaynab: 06:22

Right? But then if you're really struggling

Yassin: 06:25

Yeah.

Zaynab: 06:25

It can provide more support.

Yassin: 06:27

So it's like having a personalized tutor.

Zaynab: 06:29

Exactly.

Yassin: 06:30

That's really cool.

Zaynab: 06:30

It's amazing. Like, it can recognize when a learner is hitting a wall

Yassin: 06:34

Okay.

Zaynab: 06:35

And offer hints or maybe just adjust how the information's presented.

Yassin: 06:40

Wow. That could really be a game changer.

Zaynab: 06:42

Oh, absolutely.

Yassin: 06:43

Especially in something like medicine where it's really important to get it right. Yeah. The stakes are high.

Zaynab: 06:46

Yeah. Are we just talking about medical education here? No. Not at

Yassin: 06:48

all. Or could this apply to other things

Zaynab: 06:50

too? I mean, this study

Yassin: 06:52

looked at bladder cancer, but think about it.

Zaynab: 06:54

Okay. The potential is huge.

Yassin: 07:00

Yeah.

Zaynab: 07:00

Law engineering, even the arts.

Yassin: 07:02

Wow.

Zaynab: 07:03

Anything you can simulate.

Yassin: 07:05

It's really cool to see how technology can personalize those learning experiences and make them better for everyone.

Zaynab: 07:11

Definitely makes you wonder what's next.

Yassin: 07:13

It really does. Well, this has been a fascinating deep dive

Zaynab: 07:16

It has.

Yassin: 07:17

Into the world of online learning and virtual patients.

Zaynab: 07:20

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Yassin: 07:21

And for anyone listening who's about to start their own online learning journey, maybe don't be afraid to start with a little structure or some guidance.

Zaynab: 07:29

Yeah. You

Yassin: 07:29

don't have to jump straight into the deep end.

Zaynab: 07:31

Sometimes a little support can make all the difference.

Yassin: 07:34

Exactly. Alright. Thanks for joining us, everyone.